My Healing Journey with Interstitial Cystitis

I first developed Interstitial Cystitis (IC) about 6 months after I had a traumatic event at work in 2008 (14 years ago). It was just urinary frequency at first but, as the years have passed, additional stresses have made it morph into more serious pain, problems with my bowel functions, UTIs, and nights where I need to get up to urinate between 10 and 20+ times. Sleep deprivation has been a serious side effect. The pain of urgency would often bring me to the bathroom but, my bladder was so swollen, I could not go pee. I think the urine was somewhere in the folds of the bladder causing pain but unable to get out. It was a no-win situation. But other than my bladder (and a swollen right foot) there was absolutely nothing wrong with me. All blood work was good, blood pressure perfect, etc. and I take no medications.

I sought treatment with a urologist for several years in the beginning including an exploratory scope procedure which diagnosed the Interstitial Cystitis. She finally said to me, "I think the next step is to have your bladder removed." At that point, I thought I may as well seek alternative methods to treat this – with bladder removal to be my last resort. I haven't seen her since.

I learned a lot from the effort to help our kids. In a way, it became instrumental in improving all of our health, as we got older. About 5 years ago, I read the Medical Medium's first book, "Medical Medium: Secrets Behind Chronic and Mystery Illnesses and How to Finally Heal"

Celery from the Farmer's Market

and this book completely blew me away. It is SO DIFFERENT than anything I have ever read that is health-related. So many "Ah-ha!" moments when reading that book, it completely made sense! After reading it, I used his 28 day cleanse at the end of the book. At the end of the cleanse, my IC completely went away. Then, stupidly, I immediately went back to my regular diet, drinking coffee, etc. and, within 2 weeks, my IC had completely returned. I have tried to repeat that cleanse and its results but have never been successful.

In 2023, I had a stressful spring and my IC became much worse again (up urinating 20+ times a night). Also, the swelling in my lower right leg which I have had for several years was getting worse with my toes becoming numb. Clearly, my general health was declining and I needed to do something.

I began exploring the impact on my life if I did have my bladder removed. I found that it would be major surgery since the bladder is located behind the intestines and bowels so the surgeon would have to remove all that first, take out the bladder, then put the intestines back, cut out a piece of the intestine, sew it back up, and use that piece to create a stoma or tube into my midsection to evacuate the urine into a bag which would be permanently kept there. So many parts of that surgery to go wrong and what a challenge to live with the outcome. I considered what else I could do.

As Anthony William (MM) has described in his book for other situations, I believe that a virus used the stressful events in my life to attack and thrive in my bladder. I had shingles when I was 42 years old and believe I also have the Epstein Barr Virus from my vaccinations. I decided to go back to the Medical Medium book and stick to more of his protocols. It had worked once, maybe it would work again. I began on October 1, 2023:

Week 1: I bought the Medical Medium's new, expanded first book which I began reading. I already eat a vegan, gluten-free, low fat diet but tried to also eliminate corn, oil and began drinking an 8 oz glass of celery juice and 8 oz glass of detox smoothie in both the morning and afternoons. I started this on October 1. By three days later, I was in SO MUCH pain after I drank the celery juice but learned to always drink 8 oz of water 30 minutes after the celery juice and it would not be as severe and also after the smoothie. But within the first week I could feel some of my symptoms shifting which gave me hope. I could sleep laying down for longer periods. Walking was difficult and I still had pain in the evenings but the whole project seemed doable so I kept it up. In about a week, I could tell that my bladder was less swollen because I could urinate a larger amount. I spent less time sitting on the toilet in pain trying unsuccessfully to urinate. Bowel movements were much more consistent and I my intestines were working better. On day 7, I slept the night getting up no more than 9 times which was a first in at least several months. That first week was very painful and I missed some work just trying to get through it.

For this first week, my schedule looked like this:
Upon waking, drink 1 8 oz. glass of lemon water
At least 30 min later, 8 oz. celery juice
At least 30 min later, 8 oz. water w/ zinc
At least 30 min later, 8 oz of detox smoothie
At least 30 min later, 8 oz. water w/ zinc
Lunch, usually salad that is gf and vegan.
At least 30 min later, 8 oz. celery juice
At least 30 min later, 8 oz. water w/ zinc
At least 30 min later, 8 oz of detox smoothie
At least 30 min later, 8 oz. water w/ zinc

(Later I changed it to 16 oz celery juice in the am. None in the pm.)

Dinner.
Evening: snacks including 1 fruit.
I should say that I was not good about eating the healing foods at meals that MM offer. I had the spinach soup twice (and I liked it) but the problem is that I cook for a family of four and I don't often have the energy to cook a separate meal for myself and I don't think they would be happy with the MM meals. Instead, I stayed away from sweets, the foods that MM says feed virus (gluten, corn, soy) stay low on oil, no caffeine or alcohol.

Week 2: The pain was much less (mostly in the morning) and I bought several bunches of celery at the Farmer's Market so it was fresh, dark green, and very potent juice. It is cool in Wisconsin in October so I could keep it outside on my shady back steps sitting in a little tub of water. I had pretty good energy and was only inconvenienced by urgency in the morning. I juiced in the morning and drank (increased to 16 oz) all of it at that time. I drink a glass of water 30 min after. Then, in an another 30 min, I drink the first detox smoothie. The second smoothie is taken in the afternoon. Sleeping was getting better and I was up less often. I know MM suggests we drink 32 oz of celery juice in the morning but I honestly can't do that. I am only 122 lbs and don't have room for all that and the detox smoothie in my stomach.

Week 3 & 4: More great celery from the Farmer's Market. Same schedule as above and although I had a lot of urgency after I drank the celery juice – the evenings and walking were less painful. I felt good and I wasn't up a lot during the night. I noticed that the swelling in my right leg has reduced and I can feel my toes again.

Oct. 27 (week 4) was my birthday (turned 74) so I took the day off the juicing and smoothie. I had a glass of water upon waking, a small cup of black tea and a gf biscotti at 10 am. & 3 pm (my birthday splurge), a salad for lunch, and a gf vegan pizza for dinner. At night I was up only 6 times. It was amazing! 

I felt like a normal person, urinating only a few times during the day. I was shocked to find I had come so far in just one month! It made me wonder how important it was that I was able to buy fresh celery from the Farmer's Market? Would my progress have taken longer without it?

Nov. 1: But I knew this progress wouldn't last because life's stresses would strengthen the viruses again and the IC would be worse again. So the next day I was back to the celery juice – smoothie routine and I am assuming I will need to do this for at least six months to a year. A small price to pay to get this debilitating condition out of my life. But I am very encouraged and feel so much better already in only one month!

 Dec. 10: In November, I could see myself sliding down again so I was going to need to use the rest of the MM protocol: eat only high vitamin foods; avoid oil, corn, gluten, soy; and avoid the 'filler' foods the best I can. This is a pic of my lunches and dinners now: a salad variation of spinach, onion, peppers, lettuce, asparagus (raw), sprouts, carrots, fresh basil, mint, dill,etc. – all put in the Cuisinart and chopped finely along with lime juice, 1 t. maple syrup, 1 t. ground mustard. In addition, I chopped one potato (w. skin) and some herbs and cooked then mashed it. Both with no oil, nuts, seeds, or avocado. I put it in the Cuisinart for 3 reasons: 1) it wouldn't be so much to chew for me, 2) I can eat a lot more of it this way and 3) creating it was faster than cutting stuff in smaller pieces. (I would  also make dinner for my family – a separate dish as they did not want to eat my food.) This chopped salad and potato was surprisingly good tasting and filling – and fast. For a snack I would have a cup of tea and fresh dates with raw nuts (away from my meals). I lost 2 lbs the first week on this and was urinating at night about 7-8 times.

This seemed to be working well for me and I could see progress until I added some Vimergy products: Vit. D3, zinc, ashwagandha. Who would think this would be a problem but it is the third time that Vimergy products have stopped my MM progress! I wish I had an idea of why that is! So I stopped that and am trying to get back the gains I made before I used them. Very frustrating and expensive!

Jan. 7, 2024: I am 5 lbs down and doing fairly well. Daily, I still have:

•  1 8 oz. lemon water upon waking
  
•  2 8 oz. of celery juice 
  
•  1 8 oz. lemon water
• 1 8 oz. detox smoothie 
• Lunch: chopped veggies w/o oil as above, sometimes with some potato or beans
• Tea time: tea with 6 dates & raw nuts
  
• Dinner: same as lunch.
• Evening snack: tea with 6 dates & raw nuts 

I am occasionally off this lifestyle when we eat out or have guests. I eat salads whenever I can at those times. I am up about 7 times a night now and in very little pain. 

Problems arise when I get stressed which happened recently when I was serving dinner for some family members. I shouldn't have let it stress me but it did and I could tell that my bladder urgency became worse again in about 3 days. So frustrating!

Feb. 2, 2024: My frequency is still too often (every 30-45 min.) in the morning when I am juicing, etc. (On days I cannot juice, I am completely constipated.) I try to eat salads mostly at lunch and other plant-based foods (as oil free as possible) in evenings. Somehow, this isn't enough to heal my IC and I need to get back to the salad/potato habit above. 

On Feb. 23, I am going to Texas for 4 days with a girlfriend and am afraid of the stress that goes with traveling making my IC worse. So I am trying to improve my IC before then so I can have a restful trip.

 

Advice to Parents in Working with a Biomedical Program

At one point, our kids were taking handfuls of supplements at a time. It wasn't fun but  remember, none of this treatment is for forever. My son takes no supplements or meds now except B12 (because he is vegan) and he has no depression.

The various diets, gfcf, SCD, and others were as helpful in telling us what we didn’t need to avoid as what was bothering him. So, try the diets without the burden that you will be on them forever. Your child will evolve and what he/she is doing now will not be what they will be doing 2 yrs from now – it will change a lot. Help them to understand that you are doing all this to help them and enlist their support. Let them know this is a team effort. (We had a family meeting that my husband and I planned ahead of time.) It makes a big difference when they know we are working for them and it gives them hope for change (like us).

One of the best products that we used was a supplement made by Melaleuca called ProvexCV for high blood pressure made from grape seed extract. It is a strong anti-inflammatory and it greatly relieved John’s depression which we eventually learned was inflammation related. It takes 2 weeks for it to work, though. (It is about $30+shipping for a month’s supply; one has to be member of the company to buy from them.)

Also, go to the the website for the non-profit, Institute for Responsible Technology, and learn about GMOs from them. Even universities are endowed by Monsanto and their ilk now so it is very hard to figure out which studies are reliable anymore. Try to eat foods that are not sprayed with Round Up. It is a piece of the puzzle for our kids and for us.

Go to a conference. They really psyched me up and gave me hope. Autism One (on Memorial Day weekend) is the best and it is now cheap. (used to cost hundreds of $) You can share a room with others if you know of others that are going. I went every year for awhile and even brought my own food so I didn’t spend much. I never stood in line for coffee or rode on an elevator without striking up a conversation with others there. Someone told me, “You will learn as much from other parents here as from the speakers.” That was so true. If something was working for their child, I wanted to consider it.

I joined some yahoo groups that were very active in the biomedical treatments and I learned a TON from those folks.

Sometimes I just got worn out and mentally checked out for a few months. That is okay. We need to survive. Then I would go to a conference and come home with a few new ideas to try and enthusiasm to go at it again.

Our kids don’t have a mental problem. They are physically sick so their reflexes are not integrating like a normal kid. The biomedical helped John feel better and MNRI helped him get caught up cognitively by integrating his reflexes.

We are not completely done with the biomedical but we have come a long, long way. John is SO MUCH happier and more functional than he was and our goal is to make him able to go to school or hold a job by the time he is 30 (3 yrs.) and I think we will make it. It is good to have a goal.

I was the ‘point man’ and did all the reading and was willing to try almost ANYTHING. My husband is a little more cynical of the various protocols and that made him a bad choice to work on this. But he just supported whatever I wanted to try and that made us a good team. The point man has to be someone who can believe in miracles and not feel bad if you waste some $ and something doesn’t work. The point man needs to be someone who is a little tenacious and bold. We learned something each time we tried a supplement, foot bath, etc. and moved on.

I now look at the families that I know who never even tried the biomedical and I feel so sorry for them. Sure, it cost us money but having an adult child with autism is expensive, also. Plus, one of the benefits of what I learned over the years is that now our whole family is healthier than most. We know a lot of secrets to staying healthy.

sally

Summer, 2016 and we are doing well

Well, the Masgutova Neurosensory-motor Reflex Integration (MNRI) is what John needed. We also found that we needed to disconnect him from the computer/TVs. He is now in bed by 10ish and up by 5:30ish (his choice). At 8 am. the computer/TVs are off and I make out a list for him to do. If the list is completed at 5 pm, he can have access to the computer. Nowadays, he reads news in the AM and watches Netflix in the evening. He gets so much done now each day that I have offered him an allowance of $20 weekly. He cleans toilets, scrub floors, mows grass, fixes bed, etc. It isn't always done well but he is getting better all the time.

The system is working well. The MNRI is really helping him get his body and mind functioning better. It is hard to explain how it works but it is quite amazing. The body's reflexes are like the software system of the body whereas the bones, muscle and tissue are the hardware. MNRI has the capacity to make almost anyone function better: brain injury, autism, cerebral palsy, genetic disorders, etc. MNRI will help them use their body better and become actually cognitively smarter. A few years ago I thought that was impossible.

Four years ago John had very limited knowledge. He knew this somehow but didn't know what to do about it. MNRI slowly but steadily gave him more use of his brain power and, because he wasn't on the computer any longer during the day, he got bored. Nothing to do. So then he started ordering books: Palestine: Peace or Apartheid by Jimmy Carter; Saudia Arabia by (US author); The History of Afghanistan from 1830-1850 by xx. Yes, my son, John has become quite knowledgeable in middle eastern affairs. He has a list of books and has a goal of seeing how many he can read in a year. He reads Time magazine every week from cover to cover. Without MNRI this would never have happened.

The next step is getting a job. He is 26 and has a spotty job resume. He got a job at Subway last Feb. and he was fired on the first day for not being able to do it fast enough. So we have doubled up on the therapy for him and our goals in 2017: getting employed and getting a driver's license.

But John still has significant deficits. When gardening, I can ask John to fill a hole with dirt and he will likely fill the wrong hole (even after I showed him the right hole). He is learning to deadhead flowers but it will be awhile before he can do it. He can't remember more than 1 instruction at a time and they need to be extremely simple. He doesn't handle redirection or constructive criticism well. He is very defensive. All these things make him very marginally employable.

John has a garden now and takes it very seriously. He waters, weeds it almost daily. He post pictures of it on Facebook. He picks and cooks the vegetables. He is becoming a pretty good gardener.

John's personality is emerging. One day he said, "I like garlic." Then we learned that he likes politics and geography. Then I suggested he might be interested in a garden of his own (at a community garden location) and he totally took control of it. I had no idea of these interests 5 years ago. People would say, "What is John good at?" and I couldn't think of anything. Now, there are many things. I realize that we are have a fighting chance at life if we keep our diet clean, stay away from toxins in our lives, and continue to be disciplined, and work at it in this way. I envision John taking the Master Gardener classes next year. I think he will be working (possibly through the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation) and have some friends in 2017. I believe he will be self-supporting some day but I don't know at what degree. He is actually happy now but I think he has the capacity to be independent in the future, too. He still occasionally becomes 'down' about his life and future and it is hard to bring him out of it. I really can't blame him as I see people with a lot fewer challenges than his get depressed.

But I believe in the power of synergy so we are working on other fronts, as well. We recently used an IonCleanse detox foot bath twice daily for almost 4 months but saw no results. I finally sold it for $1,000 which was half its cost.

Part of my plan is to keep us all very healthy so my husband and I will be around for our kids as they mature. So my interest in diet and health (as a result of researching the biomedical protocol) has resulted in changing our diet. I am now vegan and cook vegan everyday. Our health has definitely improved, especially compared with others, so that plan is working.

Where we are in late 2015

In June of 2015 I took John to Poland for a week of MNRI and 4 days of fun in Greece. It was awesome. He really benefited from the MNRI partly because the Polish Specialists have been doing it so long and are really exceptional but also because he was abroad and has been very interested in world events in Europe and the middle east. He reads about and is interested in world politics, so it was a natural extension of his interests. I think he also felt a little less like "poor me, I have had such a crappy childhood with autism" and more like "hey, I'm finally doing something in my life like other young people." Some of his friends have been abroad and he can now talk about his experiences, too.

Not long after he came back from Europe, he started buying and reading books on middle east and that part of the world. He started with Jimmy Carter's book on Palestine which he got for about $4. When he finished that, he ordered the new book on Saudia Arabia that is on the best sellers list. Now he is reading a book on Afghanistan. This is certainly progress by any measure.

I had taken my daughter to Poland for the 2 week MNRI camp the year before (2014) and found that it is inexpensive enough that, even with airfare, it costs about the same as getting treatment in the U.S. And, if the child is a young adult who would like to travel, all the more reason.

During Svetlana's Assessment of my daughter, she really enlightened us about her seizures. She recognized that she is struggling to process information and said that she "needs lots of sleep to function well." She also connected her eye-rolling tic to her seizures which are especially manifest in her ocular nerves in her left eye. She warned against TV and computer screens and the flickering lights, even seen with driving.

Sure enough, after 1 day of MNRI, her eye rolling went away. Unfortunately, after my daughter began watching computer screens again, it came back. I learned on that trip that she has a addiction to computer/TV/iPhone screens. (She is not alone; I think it is rampant in our society.)

John also needed his computer/TV time restricted. Svetlana pointed out that he was not benefiting from treatment as well as he should because he needed to use his reflexes to  allow them to develop more; hard to do when one is immobilized (physically and mentally) in front of a screen.

As part of John's Home Program, we do the active Archetypes every day (10 minutes) and I work on his hands and feet reflexes for another half hour. He is looking for a job and his life continues move forward. He still hopes to attend college and I think he will.

A big part of our challenge is also paying attention to food. I believe that gmo foods, food additives, and Round Up and other chemicals in our foods are damaging our stomachs and causing all kinds of havoc in our brains, from autism to bipolar disorder. It is hard for kids to stay away from that stuff when it is ubiquitous.

Masgutova Method

April 1, 2014

I have found the (Svetlana) Masgutova Method (MNRI) and hope this may be the final piece of the puzzle for my kids.

To get an idea of it, look at http://masgutovamethod.com/ and  watch the Welcome video. Also watch the videos of therapists who use it at http://masgutovamethod.com/become-an-mnri-student/why-professionals-come-to-learn

I would have never thought a floor therapy (rather than vitamins or detox program) would offer such powerful changes such as cognitive improvement in a person but it offers that.

I admit that I am impatient; my kids are older and life is starting for them and they are being left behind. I feel I have no time to waste getting them operating normally as their peers do. A Masgutova Method conference costs $5,000 and I took my son John to it in Minneapolis. I spoke with Svetlana one day at lunch and she learned that I was a graphic artist and she knew she needed one. (I could tell she needed one, too.) I can also write and edit which is a big help to her since she doesn't speak English as well as the rest of us. I have to say that now I have worked for her for almost 2 years and she is one the most gracious, loving persons I have ever known. Not to mention brilliant.

I also bring John to see a Core Specialist in Madison, WI (Peg J.). She is really wonderful and I feel so lucky that she would take us on as a client.  We have noticed for years that John has suffered from poor large and small motor control, feet that turn in and are painful, and poor cognition. Could early toxins have caused his reflexes to not develop from the inborn primary reflexes into more advanced ones and caused some of these issues?

During this first session, Peg saw so many reflexes that John needed changing that she had a hard time restricting herself to a few. We started working on the Spinal Perez, Galant, Grasping, STNR, and ATNR reflexes. We do them daily at home (a challenge) and with Peg weekly. While doing them, it does not seem like anything could possibly come from it, but it does. The Archetype Reflexes from the DVD sure gives our spine a workout.

The first thing we have noticed is that John's feet stopped hurting when he stood and ran. He had been given inserts for his shoes by a podiatrist but his feet still hurt until he had the Masgutova therapy. We now see changes in his hands. There were many things he could not do with the immature reflexes in his hands: write well, cook, use utensils well, etc. I am also interested in the cognitive changes that come, too. His torso is locked up and Peg believes that until we get that working, his hands may not come. John was severely depressed for a long time and then, even after that, he seemed to have no self love. He could not imagine why someone could even like him. No amount of praise seemed to make a difference. But after the second MNRI conference, that just disappeared. Was amazing. The thing about MNRI is that it does take years to see improvement or at least a lot of doing the therapy. It can be done be a parent or a therapist but it just does need to be done. They are happy to train us but we just need to take the time. The conferences are intensive and, as a result, have a big and quick impact.

What I have found from our long and expensive 8 year path is that there has not been one thing to be the magic bullet to healing my kids. There have been many, many small caliber bullets but, when put all together, have made a big difference. In fact, they have made ALL the difference. A big piece was been the supplements. The Masgutova Method is proving to be another big impact, and one that is really changing John cognitively.

The one important bullet that I hope to receive from Masgutova is getting rid of Les' seizures. I talked specifically to Svetlana about that and she said, almost with surprise, "Oh, that is one of the things that it does best!" Pretty amazing. Everyday it seems that something that I thought we would have to endure and live with for our entire life, is actually treatable—and without medication! I believe the ticket for Leslie will be a combination of the Healing Code and MNRI. I will take her to a 11 day conference in Poland this June, 2014.


It is pretty amazing stuff and so is Svetlana. She is one of the most amazing people I have ever met: driven, tough, but extremely sensitive, and compassionate.

The new world of vitamins

We found far better quality and less expensive source of vitamins with Melaleuca than what we were using. When I began using them, we could tell a difference in how I felt on the very first day of taking them. Previously, we took specific vitamins for each need: vitamin C, zinc, etc. but these are a blend which I generally try to avoid but they work so much better that it is very worth it. John takes the 'Vitality 6' which includes their "Heart Health" product which has a strong anti-inflammatory. We have found that it very effectively keeps his depression at bay—better than the Repair Gold enzymes (which cost $240 per month) we used for years. The savings is very substantial; we save at least $200 per month on vitamins and they work better.

(Caution: John had a Herxheimer reaction to the supplements at first. Although it was a problem, I knew it was a sign that these vitamins were really going to help him, so after he recovered three days later from his severe depression, I cut the tablets in half and reduced the dose until he was taking a full dose of Vitality 4 in two week's time.)

After using the new vitamins for a few weeks, I took all my old ones and put them in a laundry basket and gave them away. (hundreds of dollars of supplements.) These were expensive name brand vitamins but who likes to swallow pills that aren't that effective?

My biggest regret with Melaleuca products is that I did not find them years ago. John lost his diagnosis after being on them for only 6 months—imagine how much sooner he could have recovered if we had found them years ago?

So John is no longer really symptomatic of Aspergers but he still has residual issues like cognitive delay, some empathy issues, disorganization, etc. We now need to find an answer to those areas for him to function successfully in school and work.

Les had substantial issues as she has graduated from High School and is taking classes and working. Too much coffee shop coffee and too little eating real food, for one. She is beautiful and very kind and gracious so she gets too much attention from boys, also. Her difficulties hampered her attempts getting a license and doing well in school.

The Healing Code

March 30, 2014

I purchased the book The Healing Code by Alex Loyd & Ben Johnson. It is quite an amazing book. The Healing Code uses quantum energy to heal and anyone can do it--to yourself, your child, your pet, even plants. All living things respond to quantum energy. I must say, however, that at first I didn't feel much energy when I am doing The Code.

I think this book saved my life. I had chronic stress from an employment situation in my life and it was killing me slowly. I could not get over the stress of it. My sinus problems and arthritis were getting so much worse, I thought I would have to quit gardening. But the first thing I noticed when I started the HC was that, although I was focusing on healing my chronic sinus issues, it was the total loss of pain from arthritis in my legs that came first. Days later, however, I noticed my sinuses draining while doing The Codes. After about a week and a half, I noticed further improvement in my sinuses. Then, however, I caught a terrible cold and was incapacitated for 2 days which I now realize was a Herxheimer effect. Now I use it if I have a flu or cold—15 minutes of HC done twice a day will generally knock it down. It comes back the next day and I do it again. But I can work, feel good, and continue on. I have also used it remotely for friends that have had major life altering stress (death of spouse, chronic pain) and it makes such a difference, I am so grateful that I have this tool. I have given away about 30 books to people who need it. Some never open it, others call me and are so grateful. It has made a huge difference in my mental, emotional, and physical health and I am finally able to move forward. 

John: I have learned that to really make a big difference, I need to put some serious time in it. If I can do it about an hour a day, that is what it takes for the big stuff. Autism? Yes, it can make a big impact but the HC is best used with other interventions, like diet changes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc), supplements, etc. and it can boost the affect of those (but it takes a lot of time). 


Some people have better energy for the HC than others. I am kinda 'dense' and don't have as good of energy for it as others but I can feel the energy coming from my fingers. I think my practice has helped this develop as I didn't feel it at first.